Episode 3: Conquering Postpartum Depression and Embracing Self-Care

Kayla: Hey, Lisa, thanks for joining me. I’m so excited that you decided to sign up for a slot.

Lisa: Yes, I’m excited too. I’m really looking forward to our chat.

Kayla: And so, buddy, you’re in Australia and you’re freezing, and I’m over here in Texas. It is like 100 degrees.

Lisa: I don’t know what that is, because it’s Fahrenheit and we use Celsius, so I think it’s four degrees Celsius here right now, because it’s really early in the morning.

Kayla: Yeah, Well, I don’t know the conversion, but it’s extremely hot. So like it’s short sweater. No one here is wearing sweaters or anything.

Lisa: Yeah, that’s so funny. Oh, I would love that right now. I love the heat.

Kayla: Yeah, and we’re all over here ready for the cold weather.

Lisa: Yeah, and we’re going into spring, so we’re in spring now and then looking forward to summer. So it’s like all upside down, all right here, wow yeah, everything’s the opposite.

Kayla: Before we get started, let me introduce you. My guest today is Lisa Quinney. She’s a mum of two girls, ages 8 and 11. She is a counselor for parents in Australia. She moved to Melbourne about 10 years ago from Germany where she grew up, so she gave birth in two different countries, which will be interesting to hear more about soon. Yeah, so the first thing that I want to know is what is your definition of a balanced life?

Lisa: Oh OK, as a mum, that’s really difficult, isn’t it? I mean, there’s so much to talk about there. I think that balance is probably a little bit like a unicorn that we’re chasing but we can’t ever really catch it, and I think that’s OK if we are aware of that, if we just are striving to get to the balance, towards balance.

I think that’s enough, and there are some really good things that I have tried to incorporate into my life to feel more balanced, because I guess becoming a mum throws you off balance.

Kayla: It does, it really does.

Lisa: It does, it unravels you and you have to really find your centre again. So I think there are a few things for me personally, that happened as well, because when I first became a mum, we moved countries when my child was 10 months old, so, yeah, so there was a lot, you know, becoming a mum trying to find out who I was, and then also being an expert living in a different country without my social network and a different culture. So that was tricky to find balance there. And then also when yeah, and then Because, that’s a lot, I’m sorry.

Kayla: That’s a lot of stuff, like not only were you a new mum, but you’re moving to a new country, learning a different culture, like that is like a whole lots of transition rolled up into one major one.

Lisa: Yeah, I agree, but I didn’t know that at the time. So now, looking back, I’m thinking wow, you know.

But yeah, and then with the second one, the second child, again, you know there’s so much change and such a huge transition, and for everyone in the family as well, and that that was a tough time, and I guess. So I did have postpartum depression after the second child, and then you know, then finding balance again, I think.

So what I, what I did, you know where I am now, where I feel like I have a good, a good balance, or you know, as good as it can get. Maybe you know sometimes are harder than others, but yeah, so I think it’s really important to know Yourself and what you need. Yeah, it is self care wise as well, and then love yourself so much that you know that you deserve that self care and that you are just as important as everyone else in the family.

Kayla: Yeah.

Lisa: And then to ask for that as well and to really be assertive about your needs and not taking it all on, you know, not taking all of the things that have to be done, the life, admin, the mental load, the emotional labor, the you know, the inner work, all that stuff Like it’s just so much. Share it. If you have a partner, you know like, share it with your partner and also don’t take on, I think, their stuff like what’s not yours, like.

I feel like sometimes, as women, we tend to take on too much and don’t put in boundaries. So what I have learned is to ask for what I need and to not assume that he might, what he might need. I will, you know, my husband will have to ask and I’m not doing that for you. You have to do that.

If things are getting too much, you have to tell me and then you know I’m doing the same thing. I would say, look, I’m feeling overwhelmed right now. I think I need five minute breather or whatever it is. So that is that is helping with balance.

Kayla: How did you, how did you get to that point where you figured out what your own needs were? I know that’s something lots of moms struggle with is, like you said, they are juggling everything, that they don’t even have the time or can’t even remember what it was that they enjoyed, or can’t even take the time to think, or they feel like they can’t take the time to think about what their needs are, and if they do, they often will feel like there’s not enough time for them to do those things.

Lisa: Yeah, I think that’s a great question.

So I think what helped was being unwell and like really hitting rock bottom.

To be really honest to you know, be at a point where everything was so terrible that I had to make changes, like I was forced to really look at myself, what I was doing and what I needed, and so what changed was hold on, I can’t do this, and I was beating myself up about it because I didn’t know at the time that I did have postpartum depression, and what happens when you have that is you blame yourself.

You know, you beat yourself up. It’s like you know I’m failing as a mum, I’m not good enough, I’m doing everything wrong, and you know that is, that is a terrible place to be in. So it just broke me so much that not that I’m broken, but you know what I mean it just hit so deeply that I just had to reassess.

You know I had to just come to a point where I had to, yeah, really look at what I needed and how to get that. And so I became a lot more assertive than I started with meditation.

Kayla: Yeah, you know, if that’s, you know, like Like some things, or are you okay, or like what led you to that moment where you were. You thought to yourself something has to change, things need to be different, or what led you there.

Lisa: Okay, that’s, yeah. I actually never told anyone that. That’s a really good question. No, that’s deep, because there was one Christmas. It must have been the first or second one, I guess. So you know, that would have been maybe 12, no, so she was born in such like a year after a year and a bit after the birth of my second child.

So I was like really in the thick of the postpartum depression and not knowing that I had it and not having any help, not getting any support, and I was driving home from a family Christmas and I was so sleep deprived, I was so tired I couldn’t sleep, you know, because my nervous system was completely dysregulated and I was thinking, and my whole family was in the car I just, I just want to run off the road right now, like I just don’t want to be here anymore.

It was that bad. And then I was, and then, you know, I snapped out of it and I thought, oh my God, what a terrible thought to have. You know, like and I didn’t mean to like, take anyone with me. I was just like I don’t want to be here anymore, I just cannot handle this anymore. And then that’s, that was the lowest point, you know. Yeah, yeah, that was.

Kayla: That was the moment for you where you thought like this needs to change. This is the auto change for me to be having these thoughts.

Lisa: Yes, and then so, and it’s, it was more like okay, it was very practical. You know, it’s like I’m not sleeping. I need to sleep, you know.

So I started meditating to just help me, to just try something out, you know, and, and that’s when I started getting in touch with that, you know, with that, really, that self that’s in there, that, like the old Lisa that was somewhere in there, and I love that you said that, the old Lisa.

Yeah, yeah. And then, yeah, and that feeling of being calm and being present and being with you, with yourself, you know, taking that five minutes or 10 minutes or an hour, whatever it was just to be with me, that’s that makes that shifted things for me. That like, slowly, slowly, slowly, baby steps. You know, it took me many, many years. And then you know I thought, oh, wow, this is really interesting.

And I looked into meditation and I went to sound healing sessions and I connected with other people and you know, so slowly, I was, like, you know, trying to find other things and meditate more often.

You know, I downloaded an app and I did all the like okay, yeah, seven days of happiness or seven days of gratefulness or whatever, you know like did all this and it really, it really helped me, it really changed my life, because from that, that was like a role on effect, you know, because I was showing up for myself and I was identifying what I needed, that I then started to fill my own cup again so I could become a better mom.

And then I started this whole self love mission where I was just like I need to give myself what I need. I need to love myself first, and then I can give more, because, as a mom, you give and give and give, which is beautiful. But sometimes it feels like there is nothing left to give. There’s nothing left in the tank, and that’s yeah, and no one else is going to come and rescue you. There’s no, you know, magic Prince or fairy godmother that comes in and makes everything better.

You have to do that.

Kayla: I mean there are some people who have partners who are very intuitive. But not everyone’s partner is like that and it’s it’s hard, you know, to have that expectation of your partner. If you, if you have a partner, right that they should know how I’m feeling, or they should know all of these things that I’m going through and that I must be stressed, but they’re not coming to help me.

That’s not always clear, clearly seen. So it is, you know, our job to advocate for ourselves, but we first have to acknowledge that we need the help, because moms can’t do everything.

Lisa: Mm, that’s so true. Yes, and I guess in my personal case I’m suspecting that my husband might have also had postpartum depression, because it is very likely that when the likelihood is higher, when women who have postpartum depression, their partners have it too. So just looking back and you know I’m not diagnosing for anything, but I’m just thinking, look, there was so much pressure on us. It was hard. You know, he was like trying to set up his new family.

He traveled to Europe, you know, as a young guy, with his friends and, like you know, had had this like fun, carefree life in London and traveled Europe, and then we met so and then, you know, a few years later he moves back home and now he has a wife and a young family and he has to set us up again and use the provider. So he needs you know, that’s his job now and he’s working really, really hard and trying to find his feet as well, you know, in this whole new family life.

So there was a lot of pressure on him too and he was obviously missing his social circle as well and needed to fill up his cup as well, and I understand all that. I do think there was just not enough support there for us, you know, as a young family trying to figure it all out, having to pay a mortgage, all of a sudden, all these things you know, that just pile up and then yeah.

So it’s. I always try to see the dad as well, or the partner as well, what is going on for them, because they are so in it too, they’re so affected by it all too.

Kayla: Yeah, what? So you know, as a perinatal professional, do you think perinatal mental health issues can be prevented?

Lisa: I don’t think in our world that we have created, I think there’s a lot of things we can do to support ourselves and but that needs awareness.

Kayla: And.

Lisa: I don’t think there’s enough out there to enough like real knowledge. You know, there’s a lot of myths, there’s a lot of stereotypes, there’s a lot of. I think this is when you don’t like your baby, you know, things like that. It’s there’s no like, there’s no real awareness of what it is, how it shows up. And especially medical health professional, like I tried to get help at the time.

You know it wasn’t like I was just suffering in silence and I really tried to reach out. I talked to two peas. I said to one Do you think I have post-natal depression or postpartum depression? And he said no, like my gosh, wouldn’t you ask what makes you? Ask that? You know, like, what is going on for you.

Like if someone was going to say that to me, like you know, there would be a red flag and I would just turn all my attention to this person and say what’s going on, you know, and I just I feel for myself and all the women that are going through it and that are not heard because these things are subtle, like that was a subtle hint, but people need to know that’s actually really big, because moms don’t want to admit that they’re struggling.

You know, no one, no one. No one can know, because everyone’s got it together, everyone’s, you know, always so well put together and organized, and everyone’s cooking things from scratch and baking with the kids and going to the park all the time, where I, you know, I sit in a corner and cry myself to sleep and no one can know that because, you know, maybe there’s something wrong with me.

So I wish that women had more of a like. Women would have more awareness, but everyone would have more awareness and then, you know, then we would be able to support women in a way that wouldn’t make them sick. Not in every case.

I think there are just some cases where you know there might be physiological reasons or like hormone imbalances and things like that where it’s just, you know, more of an intervention needed to manage that, but I do think a lot is just having the support in place, because it’s a lot yes.

Kayla: It is.

Lisa: It really is and also, in addition to that, it’s a you know if you don’t have a lot of. I don’t know how it is in America, but here, you know, the support after birth is not, is not really there. Like you can see a nurse every now and so often and they check the baby and they will screen for postpartum depression. But if there’s no trust there, if it’s not a warm environment, women will not open up, which is like I think that’s understandable.

My nurse was very judgmental so I was not going to tell her. You know, like she was always making me feel worse. You know when I would see her and I think I did a pretty good job at looking after my children, but still, like she would always find things that weren’t ideal, and would you know?

and so you know, every time I was like, I’m like yeah, yeah.

Kayla: What would you want to open up?

Lisa: Exactly. So that makes it hard. So I think there needs to be more support. And then you could you know, you could ask the doula to come and help right Like. They offer these beautiful supports afterwards they cook for you, they might give you a massage, they look after the baby, if you need to, like they can really give you that nurturing warmth that you need once you become a mother, in the first few months, or even 12 months after birth.

So valuable, so beautiful, but it costs so much money, like I wouldn’t have, you know, I wouldn’t have let myself have that because I believed I wasn’t worthy of that. Now it’s a different story. I think if I had a baby now, I’d be like and I’m gonna have all the doulas, you know.

Kayla: I’m glad you brought that up. First, there are some people listening that probably don’t know what a doula is. Oh okay, yeah. And second, yes, like that point you made, like I would not have allowed myself, because, like, having a doula can seem like a luxury.

Lisa: Yeah.

Kayla: And but that sometimes it’s so important to have those support systems. It’s not a luxury. You we can’t mother all on our own and take care of the baby and ourself and if we don’t have support from family or friends, we have to hire someone.

That’s something that you, that you, should do if you can afford it Absolutely, and if not, that’s something to think about when you’re, if you know, if you have the luxury right to plan to have your child, because sometimes that doesn’t happen, how can you fit this in your budget? To have doulas, and there’s so many different kinds of doulas now there’s night doulas, there’s like birth doulas and there’s child doulas.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah. They’re just offering such a beautiful service and I wish that the world was more like that. You know it was friendly, yeah, and like more nurturing and boomer, just just like you know exactly what the doulas are offering. I think it’s such a like I wish I’ve had that. You know, it’s such a great thing and it’s just, and especially when you don’t have that network like you know, in my case case especially moving away from home and being completely removed from a social network, like I didn’t have my family and didn’t have my and I feel like when you become a mom, you need your mom.

You know you’re like mom, I don’t know how to do this, so if that’s not there, then you know who have you got and you don’t, I didn’t have my friends, that I knew my whole life, that I like family that you can really lean on and that you can have a laugh with. Like, laughing is so important, isn’t it? Like we just have, like, even if everything’s terrible, if you’ve got your best friend, you can just laugh about it. You know, and cry at the same time. It’s just so good for the soul. And so all these things went there for me, which you know.

Now I’m thinking, okay, no wonder you got unwell, like that was just too hard for anyone to go through.

But I don’t want to make it sound like I’m a victim or mom’s our victim. I think what is happening in our world is that we have to become rebels. We, as moms, we have to. We are so we are told by society and by patriarchy that moms, we as moms and as women, don’t hold value, and then we are conditioned to believe that we don’t have value.

So and that’s the self love that I’m talking about is to say no, hold on. Actually, I have just as much value as everyone else here and I deserve better. I deserve that my needs are being met. I deserve to sleep. I deserve, you know, I deserve the basic things in life and I don’t have to work so bloody hard every day to get that. You know, I’m going to take it now, you know, yeah.

Kayla: Yeah, I love that, that’s so true. Yeah, and the part two, like going back. I wanna go back a little bit to where you talked about how you didn’t trust the nurse that you would see, and that’s also because you had also questioned. I don’t know what it’s like in the US and it’s very similar and you go back for, I think, to like postpartum just for the mom and the rest are all for the baby, like there’s different monthly checkups it’s not every month, but it depends and then you fill out a form and then on those forms they’re asking you all these questions.

And I remembered going in for one of those. It was before I had given birth, so it was pregnant at the time with my third. So I was already a therapist, I was already licensed, so I knew the stuff, I knew the questionnaires and I went in there and the nurse asked me she goes, have you been feeling depressed? And I said no, I haven’t been feeling depressed.

And she’s like, oh, okay, and then she went on to a different subject and I asked her what would happen if I told you I was feeling depressed, or what if I didn’t know what you meant by have I been feeling depressed? What would happen and she couldn’t give me an answer and it blew my mind and I’m like you’re asking someone if they’re depressed and they might not even know what you mean, or they have this really negative idea of what depression looks like and they’re going to say no because they don’t want you to think something’s wrong with them.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, that’s so true. It’s really tricky because that is a question that’s. I would have probably said no to that as well, because I didn’t know at the time that I was depressed. My husband said it At some stage. He said I think you have, you might have, postpartum depression and I was like no, I don’t have that. That was like my first reaction. But then I did go on and ask my doctor because I thought maybe he’s right. And now I’m looking back.

Kayla: That’s when they said no.

Lisa: Yeah.

Kayla: Oh my gosh.

Lisa: Wow, yeah, and the question is also really like the screening tools. I think some of the questions are just so. I think there’s one question on there and it says have you been blaming yourself for no good reason? And I’m like, no, no, I have tons of reasons to blame myself. Yes, I know which question you’re talking about you know.

So it’s just. I feel like the question there doesn’t even understand depression like what it actually is and it’s so. I can’t even describe, I can’t even put it in words, it’s just. It takes you to just this really dark place, but you’re still like I was still able to do all the things and to do all the pretending which is exhausting to other moms and to act like I was OK.

I was able to do all that. I wasn’t just sitting or laying bed. It was not as severe as sometimes to picture depression where you are not able to get up and you can’t even go and have a shower. And I was able to do these things. I was very, I guess, high functioning, but I was struggling. It was really hard.

And just that critic, that voice that keeps saying you’re not doing good enough. And there were moments where I was so desperate because my baby was also unwell, so she had silent reflux, so she didn’t sleep all day, so she was just screaming. And that doctor told me you have to stop picking her up. You are training your baby to scream for you because she knows you’re going to come and pick her up. You have to just let her scream.

And as someone in that situation where you don’t know who to turn to, you’re going to an authority figure who is supposed to help you and that’s the advice they give you. What do you do? You do it right Because that’s what they say, and if you are a little bit I don’t know have the capacity, you might do your own research and try different things.

But honestly, I was so desperate. I just listened to him and obviously, now, looking back, I think I can’t believe that it was heartbreaking for me just hearing the baby scream, not being able to go there because that’s wrong and I’m doing it wrong and I’m screwing the baby up. I was even blamed. So I was like, well, they are blaming me and I’m blaming me. It must be true. Oh, yeah.

And then it didn’t help, obviously because she was actually physically un-like-six, she was in pain, she had that, yeah, and she had good reason to scream, and so that went on for a while and then eventually someone said to me have you looked into Silent Reflex? And I googled and I found out and there were just these subtle signs and I think that’s what it’s going on. I can’t feed her properly. She always lets us on, off, on, off, on off, and it was just like one feed takes an hour and I was like, had I gotten a lactation concert?

Kayla: anyone to see that?

Lisa: they would have probably said straight away mate this is not right, but I didn’t so again. So I went back to the doctor and I said look, I think she’s got Silent Reflex. And he said well, if that was the case she would sleep better on her tummy. And I said, well, she does. But the nurse said how would you feel about having a dead baby? Because you wanted a few moments of quiet.

Kayla: Oh no.

Lisa: Because I told her I was putting her on her tummy because she was sleeping. I know that’s actually what she said to me. She was like and that’s back to your question what happened there? Why was there no trust? That was the stuff that she was saying. So I was like I’m not going to tell her, like she was just going to I don’t know, they’re going to take my child away or something.

And so, yeah, she was just obviously concerned about SIDS, which is fair. She has to tell us these things. She has to say this is not safe. You have to put her on her back. But she could have said it in a way that wasn’t as confronting and, as you know, blaming. But yeah, that’s you know.

And then that’s what I said to my doctor. I said I’m not allowed to put her on her tummy because everyone’s saying no, it’s wrong. But she does sleep better on her tummy. And that’s when he gave us medicine and she settled and everything became better. But yeah, it was a struggle to get there.

Kayla: Yeah, oh, my gosh yeah.

Kayla: I mean even myself, like with my third kid. We co-slept with all of our babies, and the first one it was so my mom’s a nurse, and so she was very much like, no, you can’t do that. And so I’m still doing it, because obviously the only way could get any sleep, because I was also breastfeeding and I felt like he just didn’t want to be in the crib at all. Like as soon as I would put him down he would start to cry. He just wanted to sleep in my arms or near me. That was the only way could sleep, and so that was the truth.

With the second and then the third, we did it, and even during my third going to the doctor’s office is we’re in a rural area so the pediatricians here rotate. Like each one of my children had a different pediatrician. So I didn’t really make relationships with the doctors and so I never really trusted them to tell them like, yes, I’m co-sleeping, no, he doesn’t sleep in his own crib.

Because I was so scared of what they were going to tell me, even though, as a seasoned mom of you know, this is my third child already. You know I should, I would think, or I would have thought, that I would have been just like no, I co-sleep. But I really did not want to feel any shame or judgment from the doctor, so I said, yes, he sleeps in his own crib, which is more problematic than anything, because I should be able to trust my doctor.

Lisa: Oh, absolutely, and that’s exactly what I’m saying, like that’s good on you, you know, for listening to your child and yourself and to create that, because that’s what you needed and what’s what he needed. But, yeah, there is so much expectation, there’s so much blame, it’s so mean. You know the world that we created for moms, and no wonder that you know we are not honest, we don’t feel safe to be honest, and that’s what it comes down to. There has to be more safety for us to say what is really going on without being so scared that something bad might happen.

Kayla: Yeah.

Lisa: Yeah, and you know you might think this GP sounds horrible. Why didn’t you change? You know doctors, but so I did. That was my new GP, because the one that I saw during pregnancy said to me your tummy looks way too small for you know 26 weeks or something. I think the baby has stopped growing weeks ago. You know, way too literally, this is your second child. It should be a lot bigger.

So then, I left, yes, and I thought, ok, stop growing. Is he saying my baby is dead? You know that’s? And then I had to wait five days for an ultrasound to find out and she was absolutely fine, so I did not go back there. You know, that was just so wrong and yeah, that like how can you do that to someone?

And I just don’t understand, how are physicians who are looking after these vulnerable people who really need support and help, how are they so not aware of what their word, the impact their words will have on the people they see? It just blows my mind.

Kayla: It is, and every time I hear stories like this I feel like I shouldn’t be shocked. But I think that would be more problematic, right, if I wasn’t shocked anymore, but always shocked and amazed, like I cannot ever believe that other women and moms have gone through that.

Lisa: And again, I don’t want to sound like I’m blaming them I think it’s a really a matter of being unaware, you know. It’s just the training and the resources they have is not appropriate in that space, like then they might know a lot of other things that I have no idea about.

But I think it’s so important and again, this is the whole fight that the feminists fight, you know, because this matters and because this world is run by men. It’s made to not matter, like it’s made unimportant, it’s disregarded. You know, it’s the same thing with anti-matriosis, like so many women suffer such a, you know, terrible, they have such a terrible time and they’re not believed and no one’s, you know, taking them seriously.

And it’s the same thing again and it’s just so frustrating. You know, to have to fight for that. But we just have to keep going and be more assertive.

And but yeah, it’s hard. It’s hard to be assertive when you’re so unsure about everything. Because, no, moms are unsure. They are Because they’ve never done this before, you know, and even though I had done it before, I was unsure Because I had done it before and now it’s not working and I don’t know how to settle my own child. You know, maybe I, you know, maybe I’m broken. Maybe the baby hates me. I don’t know what’s going on.

Kayla: Yeah, those are those thoughts that, just like when you don’t have the support of people telling you or your doctor’s telling you you are doing an amazing job or giving suggestions to try, instead of shaming you for the things that you are doing- yeah, yeah, yeah, that would be.

Lisa: it would be so nice, you know, wouldn’t it be lovely if you would go into a doctor’s office and they were just really like warm and welcoming, and make you feel? Safe and listen and imagine they even have time.

Kayla: You know, wouldn’t that be a big deal. Oh my God, yeah, yeah.

Lisa: So, and I know that they could be like I’m not. I’m not saying, you know, it’s all their fault or anything. I’m just saying the system is, is set up to, you know, and that’s that’s not their fault. They’re probably really good people and I don’t want to sound like I’m blaming them or I think they’re evil. That’s not at all what I’m saying. It’s just that, yeah, it’s just a matter of being educated about it and having that awareness and the resources to be able to pick up on this. And yeah, yeah yeah.

Kayla: So I want to give you, you know, some space to talk about, like what you do in your practice. Oh, okay, and also I want to go, so I want you to be able to say that. And then I also want to talk a little bit more about meditation, and, if you, found that that has helped the moms that you work with.

Lisa: Yeah, I guess maybe I have to expand a little bit more on how I got to where I am today, because meditation alone didn’t cut it, to be really honest, like, but that was the first step, right? So the first step was to find myself again and, and you know, realize and recognize what I needed and slowly go from there.

And then I did, you know, try a lot of different GPS over the years and went to psychologists. It was horrible, like I went there for all the sessions, I could go there, but she didn’t care, like that’s just what happened. So you know, then I was like, oh, I tried this, I tried that, you know what else?

Kayla: And then.

Lisa: So I also had like lots of physical symptoms like migraines and insomnia, and, yeah, so I just felt like I needed to do something still, you know, needed to find a cure for these things. So that’s why I kept going and tried to, kept finding help and then eventually I found, you know, found out like I started my own like studies and kept reading books and trauma keeps the score, you know and I was like, oh, that sounds a lot like going through. And then I was, like you know, later on diagnosed with PTSD, which then I thought, oh, that’s like so much sense.

So what I found was really helpful in therapy was I did a lot of neurofeedback. Not sure what it did, but I’m sure it it helped me a lot because I was then able to, you know, to IFS and EMDR.

So IFS is an internal family systems therapy, which I read a lot of books about and did some workshops and books to, because I just absolutely loved it. And what IFS is is you are referring to different thoughts of behaviors or emotions, these parts. There’s a part of me that is doing this or that, and then you’ve you create a relationship with that part from yourself, from a place where you are compassionate and curious and calm and connected, and when you are in that place, you can then have a conversation with that part and hear more about why it is doing its job and so on.

So I’ve been doing that for a while, you know, and then also seeing my psychologist, and then I said, okay, I want to, and we tried EMDR as well to help with the PTSD symptoms and that was really good.

There’s one breakthrough moment that I really would like to share because it was so powerful. So there’s this mum guilt that we all know about, and so I think for me it was a very it was like a PTSD symptom, basically like that voice that I was telling you before about that was shaming me and like blaming me and telling all the horrible things that I was doing wrong and I had that.

Lisa: It was like clinging to me every day, every second of every day, and it was just. You know, it was telling me you have to be more present, you have to. You got angry earlier. That was not okay. You can’t get angry at your children or you know all these things, but of course you get angry. That’s you know. Sometimes that just happens. But I didn’t have that compassion because that voice, that part, didn’t give me any space.

So in IFS you say you have to create a trusting relationship with that part for it to trust you enough to let go of what it is doing and find a different job. So this part I was talking to for a while because it was so strong, so clear, and he had two prongs shame and guilt, and he was just having me with this and I said to him so would you, would you stop doing that? Because it’s actually like, is there any way you could just do it less, or because it’s actually really unbearable.

And he said no way. And I’m like, oh, why? And he said, well, I’m making you a better mom. You have to be better and I do that for you. My job is to make you a better mom, so that’s the most important thing. So I will not stop doing what I’m doing. And I was like, okay, so in IFS you can’t overrule parts. And so I was stuck. I was like, okay, I don’t know how to go from here. And so in IFS they say you just have to keep talking with them and keep showing up and building that trust and eventually they will soften and you will be able to heal them.

Lisa: What happened was we did an EMDR session during a psychology session and the part was with me. So I was just standing next to me and we were doing the EMDR without a memory. That was very distressing and somehow that helped the part to realise oh my God, I’m hurting you the whole time. And I said yes.

And the part was like I am so sorry, I didn’t realise that I was doing that to you. And he dropped his prongs, his weapons, and he was like I’m so sorry. And he was like Teary and he was like really shocked, really shocked. It was like it. Finally, you know, the penny dropped and I said that’s okay, I know you’re just trying to help, that’s all good. I know that you didn’t mean any harm.

And he said I really didn’t, I’m so sorry. And we hugged and I could hold him and it was so beautiful. We had such a relief.

Lisa: So that session was so powerful. I drove home that day on a cloud. I was so much lighter and I thought, oh, my God, is this how people live? Is this what it feels like to live life? It was just, I was finally free from this. You know that dark energy in his grip and it was, yeah, it was just so powerful and I’m not saying that I don’t hear a critical voice every now and then.

It is way less cruel, like you know, it’s not as cruel, it’s very quiet. You know, every then, now and then, there’s a reminder Like, oh, maybe you could put a little bit more effort into playing with the kids today. You know it’s a lot more gentle, which is, you know, it’s not as yeah.

Kayla: It’s able to do it strong now.

Lisa: Mm-hmm. Yes, yeah, so that’s so. In my practice I use tools from IFS because it really helps to identify. You know. You know what I love about it is just like it’s a part. It’s not me, it’s a part of me.

Kayla: Yeah, you know yeah.

Lisa: So it just gives you that wholeness of like I’m unbroken, I’m whole, I’m divine, I have, I’m worthy, and they are parts of me that are struggling and that I can be there for with love and compassion. And yeah, you know, that’s just such a beautiful way of looking at it.

Lisa: It really is, and yeah, and, and I just try to, yeah, create that warm space that I was talking about earlier, you know, for the women I see just that nurturing warmth, that that I needed so desperately and to cheer them on, you know, because they, they are doing such a great job and they, you know, doing it so well. But we tend to beat ourselves up so much and we’re so mean to ourselves sometimes.

Kayla: Oh yeah.

Lisa: Yeah, so I’m really trying to be that for women and and also their partners, I think that’s played a really big role. Or, you know, if it’s the same sex relationship, the partner plays a big role, even though it’s not the primary care group or the birth parent. So I always try to have them in the picture as well. But yeah, it’s just, it’s all about that holding space, you know, for women. Yeah, Wow.

Kayla: Well, I really appreciate you sharing because I mean you, you shared so much. You were so vulnerable today and I really appreciate it. I know your story is going to help so many women. If are you only, do you only work with women in Australia, or what? What does that look like?

Lisa: Yeah, I do. I only work with women in Australia. It’s like an insurance thing, so I can really, you know, offer my services elsewhere. But, yeah, I offer online sessions for women in Australia.

Lisa: I offer face to face sessions where I am in Geelong, and I go for walks with women as well, you know, so we can just walk and talk, the baby can come, you know, they’re always welcome and yeah, so that’s, that’s how I work and I really like to connect with all the services that are around as well, like to really have, you know, all the doulas in my referral list, because I just I’m such a fan, yeah, and you know lactation consultants, sleep consultants, you know all the support that we need, so, yeah, so if anyone in Australia is listening and they wanted to work with you, what is that best way for them to contact you?

Lisa: Probably through my website, so that’s wwwwalkwithlesacomau, or Instagram at walkwithlesa. So that’s where I’m active as well and where I share how I look after myself and what self care looks like for me, and just to also raise awareness of what it looks like to be unwell you’re like mentally or emotionally unwell after the first you know, few weeks after birth, and so on. So, yeah, just shoot me an email or call me and yeah, I’d be happy to connect.

Kayla: Awesome. And, and don’t worry, if you’re listening, all of that is going to be in the show notes, so don’t try it. And if you’re driving, don’t try and like write this out anywhere. It’s going to be in the show notes, just for you, along with a little bit more information on what IFS is, because I know not all of you are familiar with IFS, so I’ll put a description in the show notes as well. And thank you so much, lisa, for your time and for joining us today, and I hope the rest of your week goes well.

Lisa: Thank you so much, kyle, I really loved it. Thanks, great. Thank you, ju할 nói quá.